31 March 2005
In The Year 2038
...I might be ready to forgive the traitorous idiot for her 1972 trip to a North Vietnamese anti-aircraft gun site.
If it took her 33 years to apologize, I'll need 33 more years to forgive her. That seems fair to me. From a Reuters story about Fonda's interview to pimp some new book I won't be reading:
Addressing her notorious visit to North Vietnam in 1972 -- which earned her the epithet "Hanoi Jane" -- Fonda insisted she had no regrets, apart from one moment when she posed with an anti-aircraft battery used to shoot down US pilots.
Oh, wait...her only regret is that she was photographed with the enemy? How Clintonian! I'm sorry that I was caught, and I won't do it again. Well, no forgiveness for her then!
Freedom of speech is great and I recognize that people have the right to hold ludicrous ideas (like the notion that a 35 hour work week somehow creates more net work than a 40 hour work week) but I have some old-fashioned notions about conduct in wartime. Last weekend I visited the Smithsonian exhibit The Price of Freedom: Americans at War in Washington D.C. It reaffirmed my belief that we're the fairest nation in the history of the world and it is very much worth fighting and dying for our way of life. Visiting the enemy, making a radio broadcast in the enemy's capital city criticizing the war, and posing for pictures sure seems to fit the Constitutional definition of treason! But if we prosecuted Fonda we'd have to go after Kerry next, then 95% of the Harvard tenured faculty, and so on. Who would keep Whole Foods in business?
Ask me in 2038 how I feel. I'm pretty sure I won't be forgiving Fonda topic between now and then.
22:38 Posted in Liberal Follies | Permalink | Comments (38) | Email this
Comments
When is Bush going to apologize for skipping out on his military commitment? Is there any word on that recently?
-
Posted by: jri | 01 April 2005
"But if we prosecuted Fonda we'd have to go after Kerry next, then 95% of the Harvard tenured faculty, and so on."
No doubt you would like to be the judge, jury, and executioner. Then, once you have eradicated the well known free speakers among us - you know those that don't conform to the right wing montra - you can finally purge the entire democratic party. Then a true one party system will exist and you will be able to see and hear only people who completely agree with your every word. You know the same kind of system that Sadam Hussein had in Iraq.
Posted by: Jim | 01 April 2005
jri and Jim...
Okay, kiddies. Recess is over! Time to come in for milk and cookies. And then it will be time to play with your coloring books! Just think! Next year you'll be old enough to fingerpaint! Won't that be fun? Now gather up your toys and come inside.
Sheesh.
Posted by: greg | 01 April 2005
jri said:
When is Bush going to apologize for skipping out on his military commitment? Is there any word on that recently?
I thought he served in the Air National Guard. He might have used political connections to get out of wartime service and I can't condone that. But when I looked at the military service records of Bush and Kerry, well, I'd rather not have the guy whose superiors openly mocked him, who faked a few wounds so he could get his three Purple Hearts and get bounced back home, who still refuses to release his medical records, and so on.
Jim said:
No doubt you would like to be the judge, jury, and executioner. Then, once you have eradicated the well known free speakers among us - you know those that don't conform to the right wing montra - you can finally purge the entire democratic party.
Free speech is one thing - I may disagree with the likes of Ward Churchill - but I'd never execute them for speaking their minds. Quite the opposite. I'd go to war and die fighting to preserve that right! (And yes, I'd gladly serve in Iraq right now. One thing I regret not doing was joining the military when I had the chance.) What Fonda did borders on treason. It'd be like Sean Penn jaunting over to Iraq to make a documentary explaining al-Zarqawi's beef with the US and urging us to march on Washington DC to burn down the Pentagon.
I don't want the Democratic party to disappear, I just want them to return to their roots and start caring about the people they claim to serve. The Democratic party today takes money from trial lawyers and siphons union membership dues into their coffers while proposing and supporting insulting, degrading, and demoralizing laws that harm businesses, limit personal freedoms, and trap families in generational poverty. Change that and I'll consider voting for Democrats again.
Posted by: Thomas C. Mueller | 01 April 2005
Do you think you'll still be alive in 2038? Is this the same as saying "from my cold dead hands"? Have you predicted your year of death here?
I would think a "Rev" could forgive those who apologize without qualifications. But I hear anger in your words. The same anger I hear on talk radio and Fox news.
I wonder why you don't have a category called Bush and/or Conservative Republican Follies? I normally like your energy and your discussions and there certainly are lots of stories to discuss. You might start with the missing $9B in Iraq instead of bringing up meanless issues of who supports who when the election campaign cash starts to roll. Both sides have their cash cows.
Posted by: puzzleboydave | 01 April 2005
Not getting dragged into the wider war here; just want to say that I don't think Fonda was saying she "only regrets having been photographed".
She's acknowledging that allowing herself to be photographed was a mistake--because she understands what it meant and how it was used.
It was the photographs that she was most criticized for, because of their propaganda value. She understands that.
Forgive her or not--up to you. But she's apologizing for the right thing here.
Posted by: Editor - 201k | 01 April 2005
I am not familiar with Fox news. My wife and I have what I call poor TV; I'm still waiting for the Democrats to subsidize cable for me so I can watch six network news operations trip all over one another racing to be the first to tell me the obvious. Nah, I'll stick with bloggers, PBS, and selected web sites for my info.
Also I'm a "$25 mail order ad in the back of Rolling Stone magazine" reverend, though I am looking forward to the day I can legally wed two men or two women. I'm available for weddings and I'd bang out the last rites to comfort the dying if the situation arose.
puzzleboydave has a good point. I should have a Bush/Republican Follies section. I'll get right on that. Bush errors that come to mind: Steel tariffs, not repealing Clinton's gas tax hike, not pushing harder for more oil and natural gas drilling and nuclear energy, proposing an amendment to ban gay marriage, and lack of a cohesive plan for winning the peace in Iraq.
Still, all in all, I'm happy with the guy. I don't think he or Rove spun any yarns to justify invading Iraq - the intelligence failures go back many administrations (though I blame Clinton for the biggest and stupidest errors) - and I think he's done a masterful job of playing the UN and the world to continue the spread of democracy.
Posted by: Thomas C. Mueller | 01 April 2005
Yes, of course you blame Clinton. You always blame Clinton and I can see why: How terrible it was to have a healthy economy and eight years of peace. Oh, the horror!
Things have been so much better since the Bush administration allowed the worst multi pronged attack on our nation's soil to happen-- without stopping even one plane!!
Our country may be spinning into bankruptcy, but I feel so much safer with these guys in charge!
Posted by: gayle | 02 April 2005
You say I always blame Clinton, but you don't suggest that my blame is misplaced. :)
Clinton presided over a great economy. He gets very little applause from me though because all he did was *not* screw things up. (I believe the saying is something like "One does not applaud the tenor for clearing his throat.")
We can attribute the healthy economy to Reagan's sweeping changes in the 80s and the appointment of Greenspan in 1987, though Volcker help stabilize things in those dark, dreadful Carter years.
So what is Clinton's legacy? I think all the scandals, all their lying, all the lawsuits they spawned, all the immoral and disgraceful behavior of the two Clintons and their beguiled supporters contributed to a general decline in ethical standards, both in our personal lives and in the business community. Would the accounting and fraud scandals have been as bad if we'd have an upstanding, honest, and truthful politician in the Oval Office? Or were Clinton's illegal campaign contributions, futures market shenanigans, $50,000 morning teas and Lincoln bedroom rentals sending the wrong signals to accountants and CEOs?
As for the terrorist attacks, don't even go there, gayle. If you want to discuss it in any detail you'll first have to tell me why the Clinton administration slashed intelligence spending, killed HUMINT efforts in the Middle East, played golf while strike teams waited for word to kill UBL, lost a nuclear launch code card, and even passed on the opportunity to take UBL into custody because we didn't have enough to charge him with. And while you’re at it, can you explain why Clinton allowed the first WTC bombing and subsequent al Qaeda terrorist attacks around the world?
Of course...Bush has had a marvelous record of preventing further attacks. There was nothing Bush could have done to prevent the attacks short of imposing martial law on his first day in office and deporting the millions of non-citizens in the US. Like that wouldn’t have sent the ACLU into conniptions!
Posted by: Thomas C. Mueller | 02 April 2005
I really did want to post something on the topic but don't know whether to laugh or cry when I read what's posted above. Bill Clinton should have prevented the first World Trade Center attack which occurred weeks after his first inauguration. And he's also responsible for the attacks that occurred eight months after he left office.
The reason George W Bush's presidency has not generated much controversy is because Congress is controlled by the Republicans. And they are not going to investigate Bush because they are too busy running up the national credit card thereby putting future generations in debt. China now holds 200 billion dollars worth of U.S. Treasury bonds, for the record, and if they decided to dump them it could tank our economy. As it stnads now, future generations will have to earmark a portion of their salaries for repayment to "Bank of China."
As for Jane Fonda, she recognizes that being photographed with weaponry being used against the U.S. troops was wrong. But she was right in her remarks in Hanoi when she declared our superior technology would not dissuade the North Vietnamese from fighting to the last person. They were simply not going to give up and it took us a while and many lost lives to accept this.
The power of images in now better understood. Hence the Bush administration's strict enforcement of a "no photograph" rule with respect to coffins returning from Iraq. This is certainly not to protect the privacy of the families of fallen soldiers as they claim because even in cases where the families of fallen soldiers have requested photographs it has been denied by the Pentagon. Rather, they don't want the general public to see the physical evidence of the human costs and perhaps to be reminded that it's not the children of the political elite who are serving so bravely in a conflict that appears to have no end.
Posted by: Betzee | 02 April 2005
The above analogy between Sean Penn going to Iraq to make a propaganda documentary on behalf of al-Zargawi and Jane Fonda's visit to Hanoi is completely over the top. The North Vietnamese had no beef with us until we invaded their country and began lopping them with bombs. Those who criticize Jane Fonda do so because they feel she was a traitor to her country. Those who view her actions more sympathetically realize she saw herself as acting in a humanitarian capacity. The actions of the United States in Vietnam, which also include napalming non-combatants and destroying the ecosystem with Agent Orange, were not what our ideals are about.
Jane Fonda perhaps also understood the decision to go to war is a political one. Need I remind you the Bush Administration had the chance to take out al-Zarqawi in early 2003 but opted not to because it would weaken their case for going to war. Whatever the failures of the intelligence community, one had to be on Mars, or further away, to be ignorant of the fact Bush and Company were just gunning to get into Iraq. Their (mis)use of the intelligence is something that definitely should be investigated by Congress given the war's toll.
Posted by: Betzee | 03 April 2005
Betzee's points about the Bush administration banning photographs of returning coffins is a good one. I don't know that I'd want my nephew's flag-draped coffin to be used by the enemies of freedom or their ultra-liberal allies in Hollywood and Harvard to poison our own hearts and minds. I'm OK with not allowing the MSM and other lunatics access to such imagery.
The point about China holding USD$200 billion of US Treasury bonds - it's not that scary. You have to understand that the obligations are backed by the full faith and credit of the US government and they have yet to default on their obligations unlike, well, every other non-first world country. People concerned about foreigners holding debt should buy up the debt themselves if they think it's so important. But if push ever comes to shove the US can print its way out of a financial crisis. Not that we'll ever go to that point, but in theory that's how it'd go down. Almost any good microeconomics course textbook will tell you this though, but it is worth mentioning.
And finally, Clinton's connection to the terrorist attacks is clear. He failed to take out UBL time and time again. I'm not sure which failure of his to blame...that his golf game couldn't be interrupted to get the go ahead for a surgical strike or that his administration refused to accept UBL on a silver platter...you take your pick (and there are many more!) His administration failed to recognize UBL as a threat, failed to investigate UBL, failed to take him out numerous times, and failed to take custody of him. Had the administration acted differently UBL would be dead or in custody, his networks rolled up, many terrorists dead, and a few thousand more Americans will still be alive today.
I'm not bitter about it, I just want people to recognize the facts. If you willfully ignore the facts you're bound to relive them. I think the Bush administration deserves a lot of credit for not heaping the blame on Clinton's failures.
Oh, and where was that wonderful John Kerry when UBL was coming to power? Funny, even though he was on a Senate intelligence committee and wrote a book on terrorism he barely mentioned Islamic fundamentalists, even years after the first WTC attack and after UBL had declared war on America. Our real enemies? The yakuza, mafia, triads, Russian thugs, etc. Spot on, Senator!
Posted by: Thomas C. Mueller | 03 April 2005
A single red rose in hand, Karen Meredith leans over her son's simple white stone marker at Arlington National Cemetery.
Tears fall before words.
It's her first visit since she buried 1st Lt. Kenneth Michael Ballard, a fourth generation soldier, last fall.
Still fresh, like the soil churned behind her son's grave for another row of dead, is her anger. Anger at the way the Pentagon refused her sole wish when her son was killed by a sniper in May to photograph his casket returning from Iraq.
Meredith wanted to capture the way fellow soldiers respectfully draped the American flag across the casket, tucking the sides just so, and the way an honor guard watched over him as he was unloaded from a cargo plane.
But the Pentagon firmly said "no." It was against regulations and would violate the privacy of family members of other slain soldiers.
"It's dishonorable and disrespectful to the families," Meredith said. "They say it's for privacy, but it's really because they don't want the country to see how many people are coming back in caskets."
The Pentagon's reasons for denying the media access to the caskets returning to Dover Air Force Base are widely reported and legally contested. What isn't so well known is that the Pentagon refuses to allow the families of dead soldiers access to the caskets returning to Dover and other military bases.
"It's bad enough that they won't let the country see the pictures of the caskets, but a grieving mother?" Meredith asked. "It's unforgivable after what I lost."
The Department of Defense defends its policy, which was created in 1991 by then-secretary of Defense Dick Cheney. The policy protects the privacy of families who have lost loved ones in the war and who may not want their son or daughter's casket inadvertently photographed, said Lt. Col. Barry Venable, a Defense Department spokesperson.
What families of dead soldiers want is "the expeditious return of their remains," not photographs at Dover, Venable said.
The department discourages family members from coming to Dover to watch the caskets of the dead being unloaded. "It's a tarmac, not a parade ground," Venable said. The caskets arriving at Dover are similar to the "hearse pulling up to the back of a funeral home," he said.
Meredith says she was prepared to lose her son in battle. What she wasn't prepared for was the way the military treated her when he died from a sniper's bullet in the head. She doesn't understand how a single photograph of his casket for her own personal album would violate her own privacy.
"It is ironic that this policy denies us the very freedoms of the press and speech my son -- and so many like him -- gave their lives to protect," Meredith said.
Posted by: Betzee | 04 April 2005
I was directed onto this site by the daou report on salon.com which provides an excellent list of blogs left, center, and right. I was hoping to engage some conservatives with minds but instead it's what I found elsewhere--a lot of ranting about how Clinton and liberals are responsible for every ill, both domestic and international, while Bush and team can do no wrong.
As for Jane Fonda, who has aplogized in contrast to every government official actually responsible for getting us into that imbroglio, it's of little consequence as far as I am concerned whether Americans forgive her or not. What's incredible is that the Vietnamese have forgiven us for what we did to their country in pursuit of some phantom menace. That could only happen in a situation where the enemy has been completely dehumanized. Jane Fonda's real sin was that she attempted to show the Vietnamese were, surprise of surprises, people too who, need I remind anyone, only acted in self-defense and lost between two and four million people.
And the same thing has happened in Iraq which, contrary to Dick Cheney's repeated claims, had no demonstrated links to al-Quaida prior to our invasion. Last fall when a respected scientist came up with the conclusion that as many as 100,000 Iraqi civilians, many women and children, had been killed since Operation Iraqi Freedom commenced, where was the outcry from those Americans who purport to support a culture of life? Instead all we got from General Tommy Franks was a dismissive, "We don't do body counts." We certainly count our own, just not theirs.
Posted by: Betzee | 04 April 2005
In response to Fonda being a traitor we’d have to settle on a definition we could both agree upon and go from there. Regarding the Constitutional definition you provided a link to, the closest Fonda comes to treason is probably “adhering to their Enemies”, which to me is a little vague. I don’t think Fonda actually did anything I’d consider traitorous; she didn’t participate militarily against the US and didn’t supply the NVA with any actionable intelligence. Do I think she showed depthless poor judgement? Yes. Sitting in an anti-aircraft weapon used to shoot down and kill your countrymen, talking up the courage of the weapon’s crew is, in my opinion, morally repugnant. It is one thing to say a war is wrong, it is another to revel in the deaths of your own countrymen.
To address gayle’s comments: ‘How terrible it was to have a healthy economy and eight years of peace. Oh, the horror!’
Firstly, the healthy economy was good. During Clinton’s reign spending was controlled, which was necessary because of the crazy Cold War-winning spending of Reagan. But, remember, it can be argued the Evil Republicans spearheaded that by actually shutting the government down and pushing fiscal responsibility (now that the Dems were in power).
Secondly, eight years of peace is just wrong. Please do not forget eight years of enforcement and frequent armed response to the Iraqi no-fly zone, and eight Clinton years enforcing a meaningless and futile oil-for-bribes program. Have you forgotten American air raids over Kosovo in 1999? Does the name Mogadishu ring a bell? The hundreds killed in the embassy bombings in 1998 in Kenya and Tanzania or the Cole bombing are part of your eight peaceful years?
Posted by: 3XHAR | 04 April 2005
In fact it is precisely these actions which Jane Fonda has apologized for--not her anti-war stance. Let's remember at the time she made her trip to Hanoi Nixon was ratcheting up the bombing in order to get the North Vietnamese leadership to the negotiating table. He had bet the farm, i.e., his Presidency, on achieving "peace with honor" which meant withdrawing in a way that saved face for the United States. Needless to say, casualities were very high on both sides in those final years.
I have been to Vietnam and it might surprise some posters that in fact the average Vietnamese views Jane Fonda as not a good person because she betrayed her country. However, anyone who's been anywhere in rural northern Vietnam can't but notice the bomb craters amidst the rice paddies and understand the outrage of those who thought the war was morally wrong and felt they had to take some sort of action.
As for the budget, divided government is the best way to achieve fiscal solvency. It's a little hard for me to take Bush seriously when he claims he doesn't want to leave problems for future generations given the deficit that has been run up on his watch. Those who hold our ever increasing national debt are understandably nervous about the declining value of the dollar. And we should be too--Argentina once had a high standard of living.
Posted by: Betzee | 04 April 2005
Re: 3XHAR's post
While Bill Clinton did resort to the use of force from time to time over his eight years in office, he never reveled in warfare the way George W Bush does--one only needed to watch the Republican National Convention last year to see the elevation of warfare taken to a new level. And of course this has been carried out by those who had avoided service in Vietnam. Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz....
Nor did Bill Clinton appear to labor under a belief that "if we get tough with these people then they'll do what we want." Had Bush and Company bothered to study the history of American involvement in Southeast Asia they might have considered the possibility "shock and awe" might not work. In guerrilla warfare, the enemy is willing to take very high causalities. We may yet end up in the same stalemate we did in Vietnam which requires us to maintain a large troop presence on an indefinite basis to thwart the objectives of the enemy. Training a local army to replace departing U.S. soldiers proved to be an utter failure in Vietnam and I have not seen any evidence it will be different in Iraq. Warfare is too serious a business not to study every possible lesson.
Posted by: Joe | 05 April 2005
Response to Joe: “While Bill Clinton did resort to the use of force from time to time over his eight years in office, he never reveled in warfare the way George W Bush does—“ If by reveling you mean seeming self righteous by responding to attacks, I’d agree with you.
Also: [Nor did Bill Clinton appear to labor under a belief that "if we get tough with these people then they'll do what we want."] Uh… isn’t the whole point of any war to get people to do what you want?
Posted by: 3xhar | 05 April 2005
Responding to the Rev Mueller:
I'm still waiting for you to act on your statement :
"I should have a Bush/Republican Follies section. I'll get right on that."
Just some notes: I believe in capitalism and the highest price gets the Lincoln bedroom. Are you two (3xhar and Mueller) anti capitalist now?
For those who use the "scandal a week" situation as a legit critism of the Clintons you are just too far gone, go ahead and drink your Kool-Aid and eat your imaginary "yellow cake". Petty criticisms of the past only make your arguements appear even more partisian. I'm suprised you didn't mention Clinton's expensive haircut, as Marlon Brando would say "the horror, the horror".
Somehow the waisting of taxpayer dollars under Clinton has moved to tens of billions of dollars under Bush but the same outrage I saw over Clinton's haircut by the Clinton haters is missing now that Bush is waisting our tax money. H-Y-P-O-C-R-A-C-Y . I'm just looking for some consistency here.
Posted by: puzzleboydave | 05 April 2005
Repponse to 3XHAR: While it's true that the purpose of war is to get the other side to do what you want it's certainly not the only tool in the toolbox. Nor is success guaranteed--Vietnam being a case in point.
And the reason why most policy-makers shy away from the use of force except as a last resort is because it's quite expensive as we are finding out in Iraq. Most Americans, including myself, supported our effort in Afghanistan because the Taliban was harboring those who had attacked us. It was quick and neat and the loss of life, on both sides, was relatively small.
The flaw of the Bush administration is they believed their own propaganda going into Iraq which they foresaw as replicating the Afghan experience. This type of self-delusion is terribly dangerous and reflects a dereliction of duty frankly. Why didn't our troops have armor? Because Rumsfeld et al didn't want to acknowledge there was any widespread resistance to the U.S. occupation which was a belated chapter in the history of colonialism. There's much talk of "freedom" but no acknowledgment of the power of nationalism. That's what sustained the Vietnamese.
Who can say if we're safer today having stirred up a lot of anti-American sentiment in all corners of the globe. The only thing I'm sure of is that right-wingers are scheming to make it all Bill Clinton's fault and keep banging that drum for the next four yeas as a diversionary tactic.
Posted by: Joe | 05 April 2005
With all due respect Reverend, in my experience those who make frequent reference to their high standards, as opposed to the rest of mankind, have little else in the way of accomplishment. Relentlessly passing judgment on others is a way to make you feel better about yourself. Realistically speaking, human nature being what it is most people have cheated when they felt they could get away with it. Think about it carefully before you annoit yourself on Mt Olympus. Have you been scrupulously honest with your taxes, faithfully paying what you owe for each wedding/baptism/funeral perfomed? Ever exceeded the speed limit? Nibbled off of someone else's plate at Sizzler?
Posted by: Betzee | 05 April 2005
Why Betzee, I do believe you might be attempting to judge me! I'm so proud of you!
Arbiterphobia (Latin for “fear of judging”) is a disorder that first came to my attention in the late 1990s. Symptoms include the inability to decide, focusing on minutia to put off decision making, excessive worry of offending others with your judgments, and most commonly, resorting to moral relativism for the warm, comforting feeling that comes with claiming that there are no absolute moral truths.
Sadly there is no magic cure for arbiterphobia, but there are treatments. Critical thinking skills are essential in overcoming the effects of arbiterphobia. Sufferers need to acknowledge that there are absolute moral truths. Luckily a list of these truths already exist in most major religious belief systems and codified bodies of law. Patients afflicted with arbiterphobia will continue to suffer knee-jerk reactions during the first few years of therapy and may experience discomfort when faced with difficult decisions, especially when the judgment involves human beings.
## Betzee said: in my experience those who make frequent reference to their high standards, as opposed to the rest of mankind, have little else in the way of accomplishment.##
In my experience those who make reference to their standards (leaving out the “high” quality judgment) actually know what they believe in and use their beliefs to guide their decisions, especially on tough ethical issues. Also in my experience they’re quite accomplished people – just the act of inner reflection and finding out what they believe in is a major accomplishment in my book!
I prefer these kinds of people as opposed to the rest of mankind, which apparently doesn’t know what they believe.
## Betzee said: Relentlessly passing judgment on others is a way to make you feel better about yourself.##
Yes, that’s a common self-defense mechanism for people with low self-esteem. I used to use passing judgment on others as a way to feel better about myself and also as a way to avoid examining my own life. I got over that though once I took control of my life. I did a lot of soul-searching and identified the sources of my problems almost a decade ago. It was a long uphill battle to take control of my personal issues and own them, but I did it. Now I’m very happy with who I am. I still pass judgment on people though, but not as a way to make myself feel better.
Now for the critical point: When I talk about judging people I’m not talking about deciding their worth as a human being. That isn’t my department. I don’t pretend to be able to judge souls, auras, charkas, or whatever you want to call them. All people have the same exact innate worth as human beings to me, and that worth is a constant. That worth was granted to them by the Creator, God, the Invisible Jellyfish, Dog, the Great Spirit, whatever you want to call it.
By judging people I mean judging their actions and the content of their character. I think by doing so I’m doing my part to bring into existence the nation Martin Luther King, Jr., spoke about on August 28th, 1963 when he so eloquently shared with us his dream.
## Betzee said: Have you been scrupulously honest with your taxes, faithfully paying what you owe for each wedding/baptism/funeral performed? Ever exceeded the speed limit? Nibbled off of someone else's plate at Sizzler?##
In order: Yes…in fact I overpay almost every year, then the government gives my money back, and I’ve never performed a wedding, baptism, or funeral – it’s interesting that you think I’d charge for it!; Yes – and I’ve accepted the consequences, which means I wasn’t hypocritical because I allowed my actions to be judged which is what I do to others; No, that’s just gross. I do request large quantities of biscuits at Cracker Barrel though, and I’m a very good tipper.
Posted by: Thomas C. Mueller | 05 April 2005
Rev Mueller said
"You can choose to accept the scandals of the Clinton administration – if you want to live in a world where politicians lie and you take it, where politicians ruin lives, rig investments, and sexually abuse people but that’s OK to you…that’s your world, not mine."
I don't like corruption or scandals either, still, I'll say it again, I think you should use your energy to attack *all* corruption, Delay's strong arm tactics, House changing rules to ALLOW felons, missing Billions of dollars, Bush's friends in oily places, Where's the vision (with the repubs having control of the house,senate,White House and 7 of 9 Supreme Judges appt by Repubs) and continue to complain about the same issue for, let's say, TEN YEARS! You don't hate corruption or scandals, or admire history so that you can avoid the mistakes of the past you only hate Clinton. Once I see the same energy *against* the current administration for the same or worse violations will I believe that you are truly a messenger of enlightened words. I'll be checking your Bush/Repub Follies messages over the next 10 years and get back to you on how you're doing.
Posted by: puzzleboydave | 06 April 2005
Let's try this another way (even though Rev Mueller dodged my specific examples and didn't acknowledge whether you've ever exceeded the speed limit or not.)
Every running for higher office needs a huge campaign war chest. (Followed the Tom DeLay scandal? Are you aware Enron was the biggest contributor to Bush-Cheney 2000?) Nobody gives away money without expecting something in return--agreed? Personally I would rather have them repaid with a night in the Lincoln Bedroom because that has no impact on ordinary citizens.
Fleecing my pocket by awarding non-bid war reconstruction contracts to a campaign supporter and former employer of the VP most decidedly does. And what did you think about the giveaway to the drug companies 2003 Medicare prescription drug coverage plan in which the actuary was threatened by termination by his superior if he let Congress know the true estimated costs of the program rather than the ones the Bush administration was publicly advertising? Does that meet your high standards?
Anyway, I've got to go off to work where I'm going to prepare a report like the Bush administration's fake news broadcasts? After all, if they can pass off fake as real why can't I?
Posted by: Betzee | 06 April 2005
Good point Betzee,I forgot about the fake news and let's not forget about Jeff Gannon being a fake reporter. What exactly did Bush mean when he said he had a man date? Imagine what the Good Rev would have said if this happened on Clinton's watch. Where is the outrage and the same hatred towards the little bush admin?
The difference as I see it is that everybody believed that Clinton knew what was going on in his admin and most believe that Bush doesn't have control (and therefore should not be blamed for intellence failures or anything for that matter) over his admin. Still that should not matter, I believe our leaders should be held to a higher standard. Clinton haters *only* hold Clinton to these higher standards. When in doubt blame Clinton...but never little bush.
Posted by: puzzleboydave | 06 April 2005
##puzzleboydave said: Once I see the same energy *against* the current administration for the same or worse violations will I believe that you are truly a messenger of enlightened words.##
The current administration is doing a much better job IMHO than the last one and I don't have quite as much to complain about. To adapt a phrase from the previous administration, I have yet to see anything that, upon further investigation, suggests even the appearance of impropriety.
Steel tariffs: Stupid, pure politics, unnecessary, and a drag on the economy. (Good WSJ article today on the cost of Sen. Byrd's protectionism, by the way.)
Jeff Gannon: If the Bush administration is becoming more inclusive of homosexuals isn't that a good thing? The leftish blogs I've read claim he was planted to ask questions but even they can't come up with strong evidence to support the claims. He'd been working as a journalist for Talon News for two years and had written over 500 articles for them in that time. That's a lot of planning for Darth Rove to go through just to get a plant in the press corps.
Bad intelligence: A sound decision was made based on the best information available at the time. Note that the entire world reached the same conclusion as the Bush administration did on Saddam's WMD programs. Rove et. al. didn't have to manufacture evidence, but their vetting process could have been better.
No-bid reconstruction contracts: Given the constraints, mostly having very little ramp-up time, there aren't many organizations that could handle what Halliburton was asked to do. You're talking about managing billions of dollars of construction work in a hostile and foreign territory while military actions are still underway. Name three companies qualified to interface with federal procurement systems, Coalition forces, and Iraqi nationals who also have the requisite skills to facilitate such a project. Few come to mind, eh? What happens in this kind of situation is that you go with the best option to get the ball rolling, admitting it might not be perfect, and assess the situation at future milestones. As for Cheney being too close to Halliburton (although he divested himself of Halliburton stock and his future compensation schedule had been decided upon before he left the company for the White House) how is it a bad thing if one of your decision-makers has intimate knowledge of the people and capabilities of one of the companies who could do the work? Should Halliburton have been ruled out automatically?
Medicare prescription drug coverage: A great idea, but the math behind it is fishy. I think it is going to cost a lot more than the Bush administration estimated, and I fault them for not being more forthright with that information. The actuary in question, if his statements are true, should be heard and threatening him with termination, if that is what happened, isn't acceptable. I'm saddened that the plan hasn't had more subscribers though because I've looked at the numbers both at a macro and micro level (using some of the retired seniors my dad knows) and it is a great deal for people suffering from catastrophic illnesses. I don't see it as a giveaway to drug companies – why do you see it that way?
You forgot the Bush administration paying columnists to write articles in support of their policies...maybe that'll be my first Republican Outrage posting.
## Betzee said: Let's try this another way (even though Rev Mueller dodged my specific examples and didn't acknowledge whether you've ever exceeded the speed limit or not.)##
Sure I did. The first sentence of the last paragraph in my final post contains four clauses. The first establishes that I'm responding to a number of your individual questions in the order they were asked. The remaining three are separated by semi-colons to indicate that they are distinct statements but related enough to include in a single sentence.
## Betzee said: Nobody gives away money without expecting something in return—agreed##
I don't agree. Sometimes people are motivated by their ideals or the knowledge that the goodness of their acts will help ease the burden of another. I give money to charities and expect nothing in return from them. I volunteer my time and expect nothing in return except my own satisfaction that I've helped someone else succeed in pursuing their dreams.
I acknowledge that people pay for access and influence but I don't endorse or condone those actions. I'd never try to buy access or influence from an office-holder nor would I sell it were I in elected office. If I were to run for office it'd be to serve people, not make money, and I'd gladly give a morally superior backhand to anyone who tried to buy favors from me. Which is probably why I'm not an elected official!
## Betzee said: Are you aware Enron was the biggest contributor to Bush-Cheney 2000?##
No I wasn't, but I'll look into it. And if Enron was the biggest contributor, what was wrong with that?
Posted by: Thomas C. Mueller | 06 April 2005
Some may still find little Bush (that's what the Chinese call him) above reproach but the rest of America is clearly having its doubts:
One day after a Gallup poll revealed that George W. Bush's approval ratings had dropped to the lowest level of any president since World War II at this point in his second term, a new USA Today/CNN poll brings more bad news for the White House.
USA Today notes, "By 55%-40%, respondents say Republicans, traditionally the party of limited government, are 'trying to use the federal government to interfere with the private lives of most Americans' on moral values."
Also: "By more than 2-to-1, 39%-18%, Americans say the 'religious right' has too much influence in the Bush administration," according to the daily.
Other nuggets buried amid the data include the fact that Bush's approval rating for handling the economy hit a new low, 41 percent. That's down nine points in just two months. Bush's approval rating on Social Security cratered to 35 percent. What's more, how people feel about Bush personally hit a new low: Fifty-four percent say they view him favorably.
And for the first time in the USA Today/CNN poll, a solid 50 percent of Americans think "the Bush administration deliberately misled the American public about whether Iraq has weapons of mass destruction."
This morning of course we were also greeted with the following news about our uberoily House Majority leader: The wife and daughter of Tom DeLay, the House majority leader, have been paid more than $500,000 since 2001 by Mr. DeLay's political action and campaign committees, according to a detailed review of disclosure statements filed with the Federal Election Commission and separate fund-raising records in Mr. DeLay's home state, Texas.
Most of the payments to his wife, Christine A. DeLay, and his only child, Dani DeLay Ferro, were described in the disclosure forms as "fund-raising fees," "campaign management" or "payroll," with no additional details about how they earned the money.
Imagine the outcry if Bill Clinton had put Hillary and Chelsea on the payroll in this manner.
Posted by: Betzee | 06 April 2005
Rev Said: "Bad intelligence: A sound decision was made based on the best information available at the time."
Usama wasn't killed during the Clinton years for the same reason you used above for Bush intelligence failures. Here again you are not consistent, you blame Clinton for following current rule of law but find excuses for Bush's failures. None are so blind as those who do not open their eyes.
Should Halliburton have been ruled out automatically? No
I look forward to your Bush follies blog.
You should stop watering down the Bush issues with statements like "That's a lot of planning for Darth Rove to go through just to get a plant in the press corps." and "I have yet to see anything that, upon further investigation, suggests even the appearance of impropriety." and "their vetting process could have been better." and "What happens in this kind of situation is that you go with the best option to get the ball rolling, admitting it might not be perfect" and "given the constraints, mostly having very little ramp-up time."
Maybe you should start each blog situation imagining that the Clinton admin is in charge just to get your *energy level* up.
Maybe you could list the 40 top Clinton scandals and their result? Travelgate,Whitewater,Vince Foster,Filegate etc. Would you use your watered down words to describe the Clinton investigations. NEVER!
I lived through the 90's with you and the 3xhar cronies, when ALL worldly problems *were* the result of Clinton. I must say that I truely enjoy watching this Bush Presidency follies and the silence of rage by the Clinton Haters. Truely Schadenfreude. I'm just looking for some consistency but all I find is splitting of hairs to paint the situation as somewhat different to support their lack of rage against the Bush Admin. You would have used the word "squirming" or "waffling" in the 90's. Either way I hope to see you next week.
Note:I must reduce my time reading/writing blogs and
support my companies capitalistic views of maximizing profits. This by no means should be taken that my silence means that you "win" or that your ideas are "superior".
In a Cowboy Bush world it would be better stated as: I operate in the world that if I don't work, the terrorist win. So "Bring 'em On!".
Auf Wiedersehen!
Posted by: puzzleboydave | 06 April 2005
## puzzleboydave said: Usama wasn't killed during the Clinton years for the same reason you used above for Bush intelligence failures. Here again you are not consistent, you blame Clinton for following current rule of law but find excuses for Bush's failures. None are so blind as those who do not open their eyes. ##
I don't know what you're getting at. Clinton was certainly trying to kill UBL. We know that the strike teams and cruise missiles missed him a few times but I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the time Clinton couldn't be found to give Berger (yes, the pants-stuffing guy) permission for a team to execute a mission aimed at taking out UBL. When Clinton was finally located (what was he doing?!) he fell into analysis paralysis and the window of opportunity had passed.
And then we have the Sudanese problem...and the time he couldn't get away from watching a golf game to allow F-117s and B-52s to take out Saddam Hussein in 1996.
Apparently the Clinton administration lacked the political will to take out UBL and Hussein. Either that or they were completely incompetent when it came to national security matters, and I know it isn't the latter.
Some interesting links:
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20040723-111413-2905r.htm
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/933748/posts
http://www.greatestjeneration.com/archives/001956.php
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/002/535awrfo.asp
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/874294/posts
I'd recommend reading Lt. Col. Robert Patterson's book Dereliction of Duty: The Eyewitness Account of How Bill Clinton Compromised America's National Security" for more info on the things I'm talking about. It is quite shocking and after reading the book and considering the author's motivations I trust most of what he has to say. You'd have to read it to make your own decision about his credibility.
## puzzleboydave said: Note: I must reduce my time reading/writing blogs and support my companies capitalistic views of maximizing profits. This by no means should be taken that my silence means that you "win" or that your ideas are "superior". ##
I don't discuss things with people to win points. I do it to educate myself and others. If they end up agreeing with me, great. If they teach something I didn't know before, great. I stopped using cheap rhetorical tricks around 2000 when I realized it was more important to be open-minded and learn things than be "right" all the time. Around that time I also stopped having serious discussions with people who use rhetorical tricks and personal attacks.
I'm pretty sure I'll be there next Wednesday.
Posted by: Thomas C. Mueller | 06 April 2005
I found your claim that Bill Clinton was somehow responsible for recent corporate scandals startling, Rev Mueller. In my mind they have to do with an age old motivating factor: GREED. Coupled with a relaxed regulatory environment of course.
As a Californian I know full well what Enron got in exchange for its generous contributions to Bush-Cheney 2000: the opportunity to rook Californians by rigging the energy market. And Bush looked the other way in the early months of his first term claiming it was just "free market." That was most certainly not the case as the subsequent post-Enron collapse investigation revealed.
California is not Bush friendly and that's another factor. Might i remind you, Bush has no qualms about imposing market protecting steel tariffs when the steel workers were deemed an important constituency to his reelection effort.
Of course Democratic lawmakers also accepted large amounts of money from lobbyists seeking deregulation favorable to their corporate sponsor. But your claim that George W Bush has provided some higher form of moral leadership is also laughable. The opulence of his 2nd inauguration reflects the importance our society attaches to being superrich which in turn encourage unethical business practices. Breakfasts with Bush, attending a rock concert with his daughters, etc., was for sale to the highest bidder. And all of this while the Tsunami disaster left people in rural Asia homeless and starving.
Posted by: Betzee | 07 April 2005
The hallmark of George W Bush's presidency, frankly, is that he's never asked Americans, let alone his own base, to do anything hard. And a president like that is going to leave nothing behind except problems for the next generation to solve.
Raise taxers to pay for the war on terror or his proposed privatization of social security? Why do that when we can borrow more from the Japanese and Chinese. Create a system where all young Americans, not just those who hail from declining urban neighborhoods and small town towns where Wal-Mart is the major employer, face the prospect of serving in combat? That might have prompted harder questions about the intelligence on Iraq so certainly not. Out of the question. Attempt to change the culture of institutionalized bribery that characterizes the way things get down in Washington and prove that the town isn't under corporate occupation as Ralph Nader claims? Unimaginable to bite the hands that feed you.
Posted by: Joe | 07 April 2005
## Betzee said: I found your claim that Bill Clinton was somehow responsible for recent corporate scandals startling, Rev Mueller. In my mind they have to do with an age old motivating factor: GREED. Coupled with a relaxed regulatory environment of course.##
Lax regulatory environment, dot-com bubble, focus on short-term profits, greed…these were factors. It doesn’t help when the president looks people in the face on national television and lies, and lies under oath, and assassinates the character of anyone who dares question him, etc. Those are things that fall under the heading of “character” for me. The president does have an effect on setting the moral tone in the country. Ask any heartbroken parent who has to tell their children why lying isn’t OK following the podium banging speech.
Posted by: Thomas C. Mueller | 07 April 2005
With all due respect, Reverend, we don't generally put the President under oath. That it certainly not to mean I take lying under oath lightly. I can assure that is not the case. But when I read that Push would only testify before the 9/11 commission if he was not put under oath it's reasonable to conclude that he's putting his political fortunes ahead of getting at the truth. Not to mention putting together the most comprehensive analysis we can to prevent a repeat of the events of that tragic day.
As for character assassination, do the names Richard Clarke, Paul O'Neill or now retired General Shinseki mean anything? They were all castigated one-two karate chop fashion after they criticized or merely questioned official Bush policy. And couldn't the source who revealed undercover CIA agent Valerie Plfame's identity have been identified within a day had Bush shown any interest in "putting politics aside" when a felony had likely been committed by someone on his staff? That of course occurred after her husband came forward to say he had been asked to investigate the famed attempted yellow cake purchase and decided it was meritless and reported that back well before it appeared in Bush's 2003 State of the Union address.
The fact he's shown a puzzling disinterest in getting to the bottom of the so-called "intelligence failure" on Iraq's WMD doesn't make a strong case for his honesty in the run-up to the war. He's as nonchalant as Scott Peterson was about finding Laci and has exhibited the diligence as OJ in finding the real killer of his ex-wife and her friend. Awarding George Tenet the Medal of Freedom was positively bizarre if the CIA really responsible for the errors and I can only interpret that as a way to ensure his continued silence.
Posted by: Betzee | 07 April 2005
##With all due respect, Reverend, we don't generally put the President under oath.
Yeah, I agree. It's odd that Clinton got himself there especially with Reno swatting away investigations left and right. C'mon, you could fill a page-a-day calendar with the Clinton scandals, and another with his pardons of cop killers, bank robbers, white collar criminals, and terrorists. On, and political donors. Anyway, Clinton has only himself to blame for finding himself under oath, though it's a role he should have been comfortable with by the time he reached the Oval Office. I'm not being flippant here, he'd been through plenty of lawsuits on his way up, and all from women whose characters were later trashed by that devil Carville.
##Richard Clarke
He's a clown. He assassinated himself when he came out pimping his book. How he kept a straight face in front of the cameras I'll never know. The pants-stuffing thing didn't help.
##And couldn't the source who revealed undercover CIA agent Valerie Pflame's identity have been identified within a day had Bush shown any interest in "putting politics aside" when a felony had likely been committed by someone on his staff?##
Pffft, there was no crime. That's old news which is why we're not hearing anything about it. And the yellowcake reference in the speech, yeah, that was a serious error. It didn't figure into my calculations for justifying the war on Iraq though.
##The fact he's shown a puzzling disinterest in getting to the bottom of the so-called "intelligence failure" on Iraq's WMD doesn't make a strong case for his honesty in the run-up to the war.##
Well he personally has other things to do with his job, he can't sit in committee and play the role of the parliamentarian. Dozens of commissions have studied and continue to study the intelligence failures. I don't see Bush quashing those investigations, and I don't see the Bush administration pretending that they didn't make mistakes. They can't very well go back and change history, but they can apply the lessons learned, especially allowing agencies to communicate with one another.
And remember, you can't grow a human intelligence network overnight. It takes years to get those assets in place and producing solid intel. And under the Clinton/Gore junta, keep in mind that the CIA wasn't allowed to deal with criminals. I have to say that again...the CIA was forbidden from using criminals as intelligence assets in foreign lands. That's as good an example of an executive order hobbling an agency as you'll ever find.
I'd suggest reading Bob Woodward's books Bush at War and Plan of Attack. Woodward, unlike most Beltway writers, had almost unlimited access to Bush and his team in the run-up to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. He's one of a few journalists that I trust implicitly. You'd be surprised at just how crappy our intel infrastructure was in Iraq (read: none whatsoever) and how hard it was for Bush's team to sell him on going into Iraq.
Posted by: Thomas C. Mueller | 07 April 2005
Calm down, have a glass of warm milk, Reverend. Remember, you gotta defend this guy for another four years and will need to pass yourself like a long distance runner.
It might surprise you to know that most young people are exceeding cynical about public figures. After all, who can they look up to? Not "I didn't know what was going on" Ken Lay. I was finishing graduate school when the Lewinsky scandal broke and the undergrads simply shrugged it off with a, "all politicians lie, this is nothing new." Your casually dismissing a felony offense only feeds into this vacuum moral relativism I might add.
As for heartbroken parents, the ones I truly feel for are those who have lost children (or husbands, wives, or parents) in Iraq and will spend the rest of their lives wondering what the sacrifice was for when there were no weapons of mass destruction. Meanwhile for the Bush twins, it seems to be party on! When I read they have enlisted I will be assured this is really a cause worth dying for.
Posted by: Betzee | 07 April 2005
In responding to disclosures that Representative Tom DeLay's wife and daughter received more than $500,000 from his political action and campaign committees, Representative Roy Blunt is quoted as saying, "The things that Tom has been criticized about in one way or another every member of Congress could be criticized about."
We should all be relieved to find out that Mr. DeLay is not alone; we are told that every one of us is represented by members of Congress who engage in such conduct. And disheartened to realize the problem is bigger than that Bill Clinton was a rotten apple!
Posted by: Joe | 08 April 2005
Such high-dollar family values bring the DeLay saga full circle -- all the way back to the original ethics case against the majority leader brought by the Congressional Accountability Project, a watchdog group affiliated with Ralph Nader. Nine years ago, the watchdog group filed a complaint with the House Ethics Committee that focused on the activities of DeLay's younger brother Randy. A failed restaurateur and attorney who had filed for bankruptcy in 1992, Randy's fortunes brightened considerably after Tom rose to the House leadership -- and Randy started handing out business cards as a Washington lobbyist.
Wonder if Randy DeLay and Neil Bush have ever joined forces? They would be a match made in crony capitalism heaven.
Posted by: Betzee | 08 April 2005
##Betzee said: Your casually dismissing a felony offense only feeds into this vacuum moral relativism I might add.##
Er, it isn't me dismissing it. I'm not the one responsible for investigating the case. Everything I've read about it leads me to believe that no felony was committed. The hubby probably outed her himself, anyway, and crowed about it to score political points or pimp a book.
##Betzee said: As for heartbroken parents, the ones I truly feel for are those who have lost children (or husbands, wives, or parents) in Iraq and will spend the rest of their lives wondering what the sacrifice was for when there were no weapons of mass destruction.##
You mean the soldiers who volunteered for duty, knowing they might be called on to go die to protect their nation? As for WMDs, tell it to the Kurds. Saddam gassed dozens of their villages, remember? How about the son-in-law who ran the nuclear program...defected...spilled his guts...was persuaded to come back to Iraq by Saddam...and was killed by Saddam? Or the woman running the bioweapons program? Or the fact that warehouses full of chemical weapons precursors (with no legitimate scientific or industrial uses) sat next to one another where they could be weaponized in a matter of minutes? Or the Sarin warheads that were found after the end of major combat operations?
There were chemical and biological weapons in Iraq, before, during, and after the two Gulf wars. No one can dispute that and sound credible. The problem is that they weren't found in a significant enough quantity (the M in WMD) for the anti-war folks to consider them dangerous. Even if coalition forces had found 100 tons of biological weapons, people would say "Yeah, but they're not weaponized." If coalition forces found hundreds of tons of weaponized Sarin in warheads, people would say "But they're not targeted at us." And so on, and so on. I wonder what the anti-war folks would say just before the anthrax-bearing warheads detonated 2,000 feet above the western suburbs of Cleveland, or after the NYC water supply was pumped full of thousands of gallons of cholera in upstate New York. What death toll must we suffer for the weapons to have been considered “Mass?”
##Joe said: "The things that Tom has been criticized about in one way or another every member of Congress could be criticized about."##
That's a pretty weak excuse.
Posted by: Thomas C. Mueller | 08 April 2005
The comments are closed.